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I posed this question on G+ and it was suggested that I bring it here:

How does science actually fit with non-duality? Science is all about measuring. Every single equation is an expression of dualism – it is a measurement/comparison of two things. Science is exactly the creation of dualism, is it not? There is no way to fit science in with non-duality. Science must be the proverbial finger pointing to the moon. It indeed can be a path to Self-Realization (it was for me), but only if it is finally transcended. If not transcended then it is simply more maya.

I haven’t heard anyone say this yet. Has anyone talked about this at the conference?

The response was:

“YES, Science is another finger pointing to the moon, but, like every other finger AND the moon, they are made of the same substance… and, science is saying that at the subatomic level we are all made of one substance as well… We started this conference inspired by Nisargadatta Maharaj that used to say: “This is not spiritual knowledge, one day scientists will come and understand all this.” He also used to say: ” Fluids come together and the sense of I appeared” basically explaining, in one sentence, modern Neuroscience… Fluids in the brian start an electrochemical reaction and the sense of “I” appears…”

My response to that is:

First of all, I’m pretty sure N.M. was referring to the reproductive fluids when he said that. Just my take on it.

Now about the “same substance” idea:

Yes, THIS is all one, however, there is a difference between talking about/describing THIS and BEING it. While focus is on the describing, it is off of the Being (ala Heisenburg’s Uncertainty Principle). This difference sounds subtle but it is a huge (perhaps the final) obstacle to complete Self-Realization. At some point all energy must be placed upon Being. This is truly where science merges with – no, grows into – spirituality. Theory has no end in and of itself. It IS dualism. The metaphors that science is discovering is showing us this. It all ends up at a singularity – theory breaks down. At this point consciousness MUST abandon theory/thought and transcend into Being. If it doesn’t it will continue creating infinite realities (hello multiverse) – metaphor upon metaphor; maya upon maya – for duality has no end in and of itself. It is only when consciousness has come full-circle and absorbs back into/as Self/Reality that the spell of maya is broken and the cycle of samsara ended.

I would love some input.

Science = Duality

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15 Responses to “Science = Duality”

  1. November 19, 2014 at 2:47 pm, RoyDopson said:

    Testing, testing… *taps screen* …is this thing on?

  2. November 21, 2014 at 5:33 pm, tomasz kopec said:

    I would like to comment on it. I am a beginner here, so please, be patient with me 🙂


    I agree, science belongs to the dual reality. It recognizes objects and it describes relations between them.

    I understand by an object everything I can focus my attention on. It could be a physical object (a chair, a desk, a screen), external sensation – (a sound, a smell, a flavour), internal sensation (fear, pain, guilt) or an abstract (a thought, time, life). The main quality of an object is that it cannot be noticed without its background. For example, you would not notice (focus on) these letters without a white space between them, physical objects would not be noticed without the space around them, sounds would not exist without silence, thoughts would not exist without brakes between them. It makes objects seemingly separated from each other. Therefore they belong to the dual reality.

    I agree, science cannot describe Being because it is not an object.

    Being is not an object because there is no background it emerges from so it cannot be noticed. The example of non object can be space (without ‘the’). As you know there is a lot of space inside every atom. It means that space we see between physical objects also permeates them. Space does not end when a physical object starts, it goes through it. Space is everywhere around and inside you. Space has no start and end, it has no color, no taste, no texture or smell. It is borderless and featureless. It is a common background of all physical objects and physical objects emerge from it. Space is not an object because you cannot focus on it and then describe it. You can replace space by silence, emptiness, awareness, Being, etc… The same rule apply. 1


    In order to focus on something and describe (measure, scientifically research, etc…) it you need to separate from it first. By act of separating you create the dual reality with at least two objects — you and the one you are describing. Scientific research is impossible in the nondual reality because in the nondual reality you cannot separate. You cannot step out of space in order to describe it because it is everywhere. You cannot explain silence by talking about it. You cannot show stillness by moving around it. You cannot explain Being by doing something. You cannot show nothingness by pointing at it and you cannot measure infinity.

    So I think, scientific struggle to describe Being is a pointless exercise.


    However the dual reality is not placed next or above or along the nondual reality. Dual reality is within the nondual one. Objects emerge from space and there are space at the same time. Sounds emerge from silence and there are filled with silence at the same time (which is easy to notice when you listen to a sound with low frequency). Everyone’s individual awareness emerges from within Awareness and it is Awareness at the same time, etc

    It would indicate that
    ‘duality is within nonduality’ and ‘nonduality is within duality’
    ‘movement is stillness’ and ‘stillness is movement’
    ‘doing is being’ and ‘being is doing’

    Both realities are intimately intertwined and interconnected. They exist together. There are equally real and IT DEPENDS ON US WHICH OF THEM WE PERCEIVE. It really depends on style of our attention. For example, we can focus on objects and create dual reality. Using this style of attention we can measure things, use numbers and apply scientific approach. On the other hand we can diffuse our attention (defocus, broaden our focus) and become aware of space between and within objects. Everything becomes unified, quiet, still and timeless. 2

    We are making the reality dual or nondual. It makes us creators of our world in a very literal way.


    Now, a few examples.

    You can focus your attention on physical objects around you and clearly see they are separated from each other. However you are tuned to see the world in this way only. I think it is similar type of ‘tuning’ as ability to see only a specific range of electromagnetic wave frequencies. When you diffuse your attention and become aware of space which is between objects and permeates them (including you) you are aware of the nondual reality.

    When they focused on slits and measured which of them is passed by electron they created a particle (the dual reality). When they let go measurement electron was showing features of a wave (the nondual reality).

    Letters on the screen you are looking at now, occupy pixels of the screen as well as the space around them. When you focus on letters or the white space you see the dual reality. When you defocus and see screen as the whole you are aware of nondual.

    As you said, every single equation is an expression of dualism (when you focus on its sides). However, when you widen your focus and notice the whole equations with an equal sign in the middle it becomes an expression of nondualism.

    In these examples, once we focus (narrow our attention) we perceive separated objects. When defocus (diffuse, broaden our attention) we become aware of unity and oneness.


    So, I guess, my point is that while it is not possible to scientifically describe the nondual reality you can experience Being through science as well as through everything else. Science can be useful in sensing the nondual reality for those who feel inclined to it (it is also my case 🙂 The only thing to remember is that in order to discover Being we need practice diffusing our attention. In over words we need to become attention flexible.

    Please, feel free to disagree 🙂


    • November 22, 2014 at 2:48 pm, RoyDopson said:

      I disagree. : ) And agree.

      I disagree that “nonduality is within duality”, and pretty much all of that paragraph. But rather than trying to understand reality in relative terms, which is the process of those statements (which is of course itself duality) why not shift perspective? What is the constant with all of those statements? What is the fulcrum, if you will, or the = symbol on which the duality interacts? It is the “IS”. I propose that YOU are the IS. You are unchanging existence/Being upon which change appears.

      I agree that it is all about attention. If there is a fundamental choice to be made, it is where to place one’s attention. If one shifts Awareness onto THAT WHICH IS SHIFTING THE AWARENESS, this is the IS. It is you.

      What we are talking about needs to be transmitted into actualization. It requires engagement.

      • November 25, 2014 at 3:49 pm, tomasz kopec said:

        Hi Roy,

        Thank you for helping me to absorb this.

        When I read about nonduality I often find a common believe (or knowledge) that duality appears on the base of nonduality. For example, you said, – ‘You are unchanging existence/Being upon which change appears’. Josham in a post below said, – ‘duality is a story which is played by nonduality’. I was trying to make it more comprehensible for me and I came up with the screen metaphor.

        I imagined a screen (a computer, a cinema) and the whole reality of two dimensional characters, objects on the screen. I imagined two characters talking about the true nature and one saying to another – ‘It is not like it seems to be. The world as we see it is an illusion. It consist of flashing lights only. What is real is the unchanging existence/Being (screen) upon which everything is changing. And this is our true nature. We seem separated from each other but we are all unified through the unchanging existence/Being. What seems to be a gap between us is also filled with it. We see gaps because this is how we are tuned but every gap it is still an illusion upon the unchanging existence/Being. We can awake to this realization and feel our true nature. Once this happens we do not believe in reality of flashing lights any more’.

        This metaphor shows that scientific research conducted by characters from the screen will never lead to discovery of the screen itself. They are generated by the light illuminating the screen. They can suspect the screen exists but they cannot detect it because they cannot step out of the screen to see it. They can only predict that there are bits of the screen not illuminated by light but they cannot examine it because they have no means to do it. After their death the light and screen they were generated from will be used to animate another bits of their reality. The only thing which will disperse with them will be the information.

        If you add the third dimension is still makes sense (at least for me 🙂 The main difference between two and three dimensional reality would be a lack of external source of light. I would say that in 3D reality the screen illuminates itself.

        I guess, I am not the first one who came with an idea of the screen metaphor. I have an impression that Rupert Spira uses it quite a lot. I know it is just another metaphor which simplifies the subject but I have found it useful.

        There are a few questions now. Please, feel free to ignore them if they do not make sense to you.

        Can we say that duality is a function of nonduality?
        If yes, dose it mean that duality cannot exist without nonduality?
        If you believe that duality happens upon nonduality can you imagine the pure nonduality (a blank screen without any action on it) and where it is? Would it be so cold the dark matter?
        Is the information a bridge/link between duality and nonduality?
        If duality is a change upon nonduality what is wrong in saying – ‘nonduality is within duality’?


        Regarding an attention shift, what you propose is to look at the one who is looking. In other words step out of the screen and see the illusion of flashing lights on the screen. Practicing it can eventually generate a sudden insight. My suggestion is to practice a diffuse attention and become aware of the whole screen at the same time.

        As far as I am concerned, these two suggestions goes along with two main types of mediation practice (focused attending and open monitoring, see links below this post). It seems both types of meditation can be useful in awakening.

        I practice regularly the diffuse/immersed attention style (which is open monitoring type) using Dr Fehmi’s EEG neurofeedback machine. I must say does make a very noticable impact on how I feel about the reality around and inside me. However, I have not called it nondual so far 🙂

        Please, correct me if I am wrong and thank you for discussing it with me.

        Attention regulation and monitoring in meditation Lutz A., Slagter H.A., Dunne J.D., Davidson R.J. (2008) Trends in Cognitive Science 12(4): 163–169
        Focused attention, open monitoring and automatic self-transcending

        • November 25, 2014 at 6:56 pm, RoyDopson said:


          Here is an excerpt from my book The One-Step Path:

          “Our own consciousness, via scientific enquiry, has revealed the following:

          The reality we experience is an identical process to that of watching a show on a screen. Upon viewing a show on a screen
          from normal distance, it appears as though there are separate objects moving, interacting, affecting one another. When we move in and view the screen very closely, we will see that the image on the screen is made of tiny dots, or pixels, of color which are either on or off. The smaller the frame of reference – the fewer pixels being observed – the less the larger image is recognizable and the less one will be able to predict when the pixels will turn on and off and also the duration of the on and off periods. When we look at a single pixel, there will be no way of determining any type of sequence and therefore no way of making any type of accurate prediction. It will appear as though its actions are random.

          When we look behind the screen, we find the signal, the information wave, that “tells” the pixels to turn on and off and when.

          So, looking at the process from three different perspectives brings about three different models.

          Model 1: From the normal perspective it appears as though there are separate objects moving around, interacting and affecting each other.

          Model 2: From the close-up perspective we see that what is actually happening is that pixels are flashing on and off in a predetermined sequence. It is the ordered sequence of flashing pixels that gives the illusion of movement and interaction. At a more fundamental level there are still separate objects, in the form of the individual pixels, but there is no interaction between them, or movement of any kind.

          Model 3: From the most fundamental relative perspective – beyond the pixels, behind the screen – the cause of the pixels turning on and off is the signal, the information wave, that hits the back of the screen. The signal strikes the screen all at once at a certain frequency. Causality at the screen level is an illusion, as one pixel turning on or off is not the cause of the adjacent pixel turning on or off.

          The following is what physics (the study of physical reality) has discovered:

          From our normal every day perspective, it appears as though there are separately existing objects moving around in space, interacting and affecting each other.

          However, when we look at the most fundamental level of our normal everyday experience, we find that physical reality operates precisely as the show playing on the screen. Just like the pixels that make up the screen, the subatomic particles that make up our physical realm pop in and out in a certain predetermined sequence, which, when experienced via our
          nervous system, gives the illusion of objects moving, interacting,
          and affecting each other.

          As much as it goes contrary to how we describe our experience, there are no objects, no movement, no interaction. Everything that happens in the physical realm happens all at once and is predetermined by the signal. The only difference between
          ‘our’ show and the screen show is the complexity of the screen. Where the screen show has two dimensions (length and width) experienced via two senses (sound and sight) the physical reality screen has four dimensions (length, width, depth, time) experienced via six senses (sound, sight, smell, touch, taste, thought).

          Consciousness, in the form of quantum physics, has looked behind the screen of physical reality and discovered the signal, the information wave, that “turns on” and “turns off” (pops in and pops out) the subatomic particles.

          This wave of information that “tells” the particles to pop in and out is called the “wave function”. The wave function is the more fundamental cause of all physical phenomena.

          The wave function is all possible outcomes existing simultaneously. It is the timeless All from which the illusion of time, separately existing entities, and causality, arises. Just as the entire scene of the show appears on the screen, in its entirety all at once, so does the physical realm arise all at once.

          The body that You associate “I” with is not a separately existing object moving through space. All notions of an “I” that is controlling the actions of the body is an illusion. All appearances of physical phenomena causing the effect of other physical phenomena is also illusion. To believe that the Self is the body and that there is an “I” that is controlling the actions of body, or that other physical phenomena are affecting the actions of the body, is the equivalent of believing that the earth is flat. The wave function is controlling the show. All of it, all at once, all the time, in perfect unity.

          Of course, the question arises: “Where does the wave function come from? If the wave function is the cause of physical effects, what is the cause of the wave function?”


          Physicist John Wheeler, a pioneer in the field of quantum mechanics and who also coined the phrase “black hole”, designed the following model (I don’t know why it uploaded two)):

          This “Self-actualizing universe” model is Wheeler’s attempt to describe the reality revealed by quantum physics, and the role consciousness plays in the process.

          The v shape at the upper right corner represents an event. Wheeler was specifically referring to the Big Bang, but any singular event will apply. The large U shape represents the event propagating in an unmanifest, potential state. This is the wave function – the information wave, or signal, that has not yet been translated. The yet unmanifest potential event gives
          rise to a consciousness (represented by the eye) capable of
          interpreting (the dotted line being the interpretation) the signal.
          The interpretation in turn manifests the non-thing of the signal into separate “things”.

          The Self-actualizing universe model is exactly the same system of a camera relaying an event to a screen for viewing.

          In this re-presentation, the physical realm is represented by a television screen, the eye is the camera, the U is the signal between the camera and the screen, and the dotted line is the focus of the camera.

          From this model we can see that the introduction of the television monitor/physical realm is redundant. There is no purpose to the intermediary step of the translation of the signal/wave function into pixels on the monitor/the physical realm, as it is merely the resulting image/event that is transmitted back to the monitor/physical realm.

          Here is the crux of the matter:

          The Self/Presence is the only frame of reference, therefore, all
          models are models based upon the Self/Presence. What is being spoken of is not other than the reality You are experiencing right now. The redundancy is the ongoing internal dialogue that takes place in/as your mind. The using of a symbol to re-present that which is, is redundancy. Conceptualization and language are symbol. The appearance of separately existing objects arises only upon conceptualization. It is as Self-evident as this: The thought “tree” arising in your consciousness brings about the
          appearance of an object that is separate. When there is pure
          witnessing, without conceptualization, the appearance of separation does not arise.

          The state of samadhi is that where one experiences unity with/as the universe. There is no sense of a separate Self, no separate objects, no time, and no individual volition. All occurs as a single entity, a singular event, in complete unity, all at once. This is not merely some imaginary made up idea, it is a very real state.

          Samadhi is the direct experience of the wave function; of pure, unfiltered consciousness. It occurs when reality – this very reality – is experienced in/as the thought-free state.

          Like an explorer who has circumnavigated the earth, consciousness has come full circle in its investigation of reality and discovered – itself. The findings of quantum mechanics can not be further interpreted by conceptualization because it is the final concept. Quantum mechanics is the finger of concept pointing to the moon of experience.

          Sometimes that which is hardest to see is that which is the most obvious. The conceptualizing mind will keep trying to find deeper meaning. The natural state of samadhi has become foreign to us. As soon as our children are born we teach
          them how to focus on the screen (the ever-increasing manifestation of our species being addicted to screens is yet another re-presentation) rather than direct experience. Our minds are constantly labelling, measuring, conceptualizing. The thought-free state is not even recognized.

          It is this Self-evident:

          In order to directly experience wave function/consciousness as the state of samadhi, experience reality thought-free.

          The validity of the statement is tested only in/as the realm of experience. It may take some time to refocus the mind, as it has been staring at the screen for many cycles/generations. Until You tear your gaze from the literal screen of man’s creation and the figurative screen of conceptualization, You will remain in the lower state of consciousness and will experience separation, duality, illusion.”

          In regards to your questions: Rather than trying to answer them one-by-one, I will address them all at once, for it seems to me you are ‘ready’.

          The Absolute, or non-duality, will not be realized (the realization that you are the Absolute) until mind/conceptualization is transcended. So, the answer (the ceasing of questing/questions) IS the thought-free state. This is not exactly true, for Self is not necessarily the thought-free state, but one will find Self in the thought free state. The thought process IS dualism. Therefore to engage in it is to NOT abide as Self.

          Spend as much time as you can in the thought-free state. Investigate it. Don’t give any attention to anything appearing as mind. Just watch thoughts arise and pass without acting upon them. Watch mind closely, attentively. Notice the FIRST thought. See from whence it arises.

          Stick to this practice and EVERYTHING will become apparent. You will see it all for yourself.

          • December 03, 2014 at 3:29 pm, RoyDopson said:

            I would like to make one further observation about Wheeler’s Self-Actualizing Universe model.
            You will notice that Wheeler has the observer’s Awareness not directly on Source, but slightly below it. As long as mind is focused back onto it’s own creation, realities/phenomena/experiences will continue, much like a fractal equation that keeps iterating it’s own answers back into the equation.
            Mind that is focused back onto Source/Self will no longer engage in creation, but will be reabsorbed into Being.

  3. November 22, 2014 at 8:31 am, josham said:

    I see what you’re getting at, Roy, and I agree. The scientific angle or frame of reference in relation to non-duality seems to me rather unnecessary and superfluous. However, I see it as a kind of hook that can draw people into this non-dual seeing. We are at all stages of our realisation. For many who are in the process of awakening, and who come from scientifically rational backgrounds, the scientific aspect may be reassuring and provide some sense of solidity, a bridge as it were, between the objectively-oriented scientific world and the intensely pure subjective realisation of non-dual truth, devoid of all attached stories. In the end, anything that can be put into words is just a story – including the framing of truth in scientific terms, and even this discussion…

    • November 22, 2014 at 2:48 pm, RoyDopson said:


      • November 22, 2014 at 8:53 pm, josham said:

        …and all I can conclude is that consciousness actually likes to lose itself in the dualistic story – it enjoys the game of pretending to be a separate self (hence such discussions as this). After all, that game has to go on, even after it’s been seen through… thus we juggle the paradox of being both separate selves, and being no-one.

  4. December 05, 2014 at 5:04 pm, Andrew Brodis said:

    Why does Science = Duality? Because our existence (which is the subject of science) is a duality. Our reality is based on our orientation within expansion. Quantum expansion has 2 intermingling aspects of relativity; Spherical Volume (“space”) and Constant Radial Motion (“time”).

    There is a differential expansion that creates our awareness/relativity/consciousness;

    Stuff with Protons moves unilaterally in radials (“Matter”). Stuff without Protons is energy that has entered into the expansion of volume (“Space”).

    When the speed of how fast the radius of the total system is constant (c), then at any point of emission, a new sphere will evolve at the same rate (radius growing @ c).

    Since the volume “overtakes” the radius, this allows the “signal” to appear to travel through space.

    In one second, each of our Protons co-move along a radius of expansion that is about 186,000 miles long. That is “virtually” a unilateral motion.

    In that same second, we can think or move 1 second’s worth of “human activity” over a relative range (probably in inches or feet). This is relative motion that is occurring between some of the co-moving Protons.

    This is the truth of duality. We move 186,000 miles through time expansion for every second of human-sized relative motion.

    Volume + Radius – 2 aspects of the same thing – Sphere of Reality

    • December 06, 2014 at 1:07 am, RoyDopson said:

      Do you want to try to understand or do you want to be at peace and happy? ‘Coz I’ve gone the try to understand route and trust me it doesn’t end up at peace and happy. It never ends. Not even most of the brightest minds on the planet seem to come to this realization. That’s fine, but one will finally tire of infinity.
      Ahhhh… Resting in that (the only thing) which cannot be in question – your own existence – is the BEST THING EVER!!!

      • December 06, 2014 at 3:32 pm, Andrew Brodis said:

        I am at peace and happy when I relate to my existence. It is. I am. And I can see the interconnected matrix of reality. MIND is not some sort of disconnected spirit. If you do not see the connections, the mind still interprets. By understanding the connections you are “orienting” your mind’s interpretation perspective. I don’t know what you think “your own existence” means. For me, for something to exist means that “it is a continuum of an ever-changing perspective”, within the totality of the overall continuum. Everything that exists, is a point of focus within a toroidal energy flow. This torus energy pattern focuses future events into the present point of focus and expels them into the past.

        • December 06, 2014 at 6:49 pm, RoyDopson said:

          What I am saying is that your natural state is to be happy. You are happiness itself. You are the “totality of the overall continuum.” You are not something that exists, such as a sensation of a thought, you are existence itself.
          Such will not be realized/actualized while engaging in the thought process. One must transcend thought and rest in Being in order to abide as absolute contentment/bliss.

  5. December 06, 2014 at 10:14 am, Why? said:

    Is the answer always hidden in the question?

    Question: AM I
    Answer: I AM



  6. December 06, 2014 at 3:02 pm, Marta said:

    Duality is separation from God.Master and teacher directs and leads us on our way learn.Every has different quest here on earth, other tests experience.Signify in which society lives, a lot of our influences family, school, these are all external factors, that you attract into our world, live.Therefore may not understand every theory, it is therefore important that we know empathize dotoho of second and go to the level of consciousness.

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